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对话美国CIA情报副局长:中美情报界那点事儿
2016-12-27 17:44:25   来源:看见网@羊说原创   作者:看见网特约记者:向杨   编辑:纪许光
美国中央情报局(Central Intelligence Agency)常常被冠有“机密性质”和“暗杀”的标签;然而,从专业情报人员的角度看来,他们的工作却是……;看见网特约羊说解读中美情报战。

专访美国CIA 情报副局长(全篇)

    作者 向杨, 看见网特约记;美国芝加哥大学社会学系博士,独立学者。


  本文为原创作品,未经作者或看见网许可,严禁部分或全部引用、摘录。

看见网·羊说——专访美国前CIA副局长 | 迈克·莫雷尔(上)



        影视作品中,美国中央情报局(Central Intelligence Agency)常常被冠有“机密性质”和“暗杀”的标签;甚至一些电影描写的中情局权力脱缰,不受政府控制(Go Rogue)。然而从情报专业人员的角度看,中情局的工作重点是对海量的多个来源信息(Multi-source Information)进行综合分析,深度挖掘,产生高质量的结论,并直接指导决策部门。当然,如果联系一些国产的关于中国明朝东厂、锦衣卫之类的情报机构,这种偏见则不难理解。



       看见网·羊说(xy8810_alan) 本次专访美国前中央情报局副局长迈克·莫雷尔(Mike Morell)。本文有闻必录,是因为我们希望立体呈现。
在33年CIA生涯中,他担任过3年副局长,管理中情局的日常运营,在白宫和国会代表中情局发言,维持中情局与情报服务部门和外国领导人的合作。莫雷尔也是唯一一位在911事件和本·拉登就擒当天,在总统身边的情报官员。2001年9月11日,时任小布什总统情报官的莫雷尔,被布什总统问及世贸大楼袭击的元凶时,莫雷尔说:“我以我孩子的前途担保,沿着恐袭的脚印·本·拉登和基地组织的巢穴。”(原话:"I would bet my children's future that the trail would lead to the doorstep of Usama bin Laden and al Qa'ida.")2011年5月2日,本·拉登被擒,莫雷尔在该行动中扮演了重要角色。当时,莫雷尔担任中情局副局长,并作为资政在奥巴马总统身边。后来,莫雷尔担任了史上历时最长的代理局长(Acting Director),共两届,顶替时任中情局局长Leon Panetta和David Patraeus。(注:Leon Panetta被任命为国防部部长,卸任CIA局长的职位;四星上将David Patraeus因为性丑闻辞职)

        可以说,莫雷尔在情报界的威望,是一步一个脚印走出来的。在2016年8月5日,身为无党派人士的他,为希拉里在《纽约时报》撰文背书。他的文章当日登上《纽约时报》榜首,激发了众多讨论。文中他写道:
I am neither a registered Democrat nor a registered Republican. In my 40 years of voting, I have pulled the lever for candidates of both parties. As a government official, I have always been silent about my preference for president. No longer. On Nov. 8, I will vote for Hillary Clinton. Between now and then, I will do everything I can to ensure that she is elected as our 45th president.

我既没注册过民主党,也没注册过共和党。在我40年的投票史中,我支持过的候选人两党皆有。作为政府官员,我一直在自己总统的偏好上保持沉默。这一次却不能沉默了。11月8日,我将把票投给希拉里·克林顿。从现在开始,我将尽我所能,保证她能被选为我们第45届美国总统。
        莫雷尔的三个孩子都在芝加哥大学念书,这一次有幸在芝大专访到他。45分钟的对话涉及4个话题:1. 莫雷尔的职业感想;2. 希拉里“邮件门”隐情和“过度加密”的系统性问题;3. 中美大国摩擦以及中情局的角色;4. 中美经济间谍活动和网络战争。涉及到机密部分,莫雷尔有所回避,但在45分钟的对话过程中,莫雷尔给“@看见网*羊说”还原了一个真实的中情局。
 
YANG: I was in your session, the boy sitting in the front—
羊:我去了你的讨论会,就是坐在前排的那位。
 
MIKE: Yeah, yeah, yeah!
迈克:是的,是的,我记得。
 
YANG: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool.
羊:好的,谢谢。
 
MIKE: How are you?
迈克:很高兴见到你。
 
YANG: Good, good. So I read in your introduction that your children are studying here.
羊:我也是。嗯,我读你的简介时看到你的孩子也在芝大念书。
 
MIKE: So my daughter [YANG: Uh-huh.] went here and then graduated. [YANG: Okay.] And then my oldest son is a fourth-year, political science.
迈克:是我女儿。[羊:哦。]她在这里读书然后毕业了。[羊:是这样。]还有我的大儿子,学的是政治科学,大四了。
 
YANG: Really? Really. Cool.
羊:是嘛!很棒!
 
MIKE: And then—political science and history. And then my youngest son is a first-year. And he wants to do economics, but we'll see.
迈克:应该是政治科学和历史。还有我的小儿子,大一,想攻读经济学,但还要再看看。
 
YANG: Oh, cool. So I have a Master's here, studying political science. Now I'm a first-year PhD [MIKE: Okay, cool.] studying sociology.
羊:噢,很棒!我是在这里读完了硕士,政治科学硕士。现在我在读社会学的博士,[迈克:噢,很棒!]今年第一年。
 
MIKE: Yeah, sociology?
迈克:社会学?
 
YANG: Yeah, yeah.
羊:是的。
 
MIKE: So what are you interested in?
迈克:那你对哪方面比较感兴趣?
 
YANG: Lots of interests. I want to do as many subjects as possible in the first year. I have my Master's thesis on media corruption [MIKE: Mhm.] in China [MIKE: Mhm.], but I also interviewed some American journalists, to try to add some American perspective. [MIKE: Yeah.] Yeah, so about political pressure, about [MIKE: Sure.], you know, in the United Sates, there's also pressure from the executive, so—
羊:我的兴趣很广。我想在博士第一年尽可能多接触些主题。我的硕士论文是关于中国媒体腐败的。[迈克:嗯。] 但我也采访了一些美国记者,因为我想加入一些美国的视角。[迈克:很好。] 嗯,加入些美国媒体受到政治压力的视角。[迈克:很好。] 你也知道,在美国还有来自行政部门的压力,所以——
 
MIKE: Yeah, so I think the pressure—just for what it's worth, it's not my area of expertise, although I was in the business,  [YANG: Yeah.] I was in the news business, working for CBS until I endorsed Secretary Clinton and I had to quit. But you know, the pressure that I see [YANG: Uh-huh.] is not political pressure [YANG: Yeah.] and it's not pressure to slant the news in a particular direction [YANG: Uh-huh.]. The pressure is economic, the pressure's [YANG: Yeah.] financial. The pressure's ratings—
迈克:是的。我觉得,这种压力……虽然这不一定对你有用,媒体方面不是我专长的领域,但我也参与过节目的录制。[羊:是的。] 我过去在新闻界,一直在CBS(哥伦比亚广播公司)工作。后来我选择为国务卿希拉里背书,就退出新闻界。但是我看到的压力 [羊:嗯。] 不是政治压力 [羊:嗯。], 也不是那种能左右新闻报道的压力 [羊:嗯。]。我看到的是经济方面的压力,是财务方面的压力 [羊:嗯。],是收视率方面的压力——
 
YANG: Yeah, yeah, yeah.—
羊:是的,没错—
 
MIKE: —right?
迈克:对吧?
 
YANG: Media narrative. [MIKE: Yup.] People have invested money in this sort of story. You have to stick to the line and if there's a diversion from the line—
羊:媒体叙事。[迈克:没错。] 媒体投钱到这一种叙事的框架,他们就得坚持这种叙事路线,一旦叙事偏离了主线(收视率会下降)——
 
MIKE: It's a little bit different. That's a little bit different. I mean, I agree that that's there too [YANG: Uh-huh.], and that's even there in terms of analysis of CIA [YANG: Mhm.]. No, I'm talking about, they wanna put stuff on [YANG: Uh-huh.] that will get people to watch [YANG: Yeah.], to actually—the more entertaining [YANG: Uh-huh.], the more dramatic,  [CELL PHONE RINGS] the better. I'll just turn that off. Okay.
迈克:还是有一点不同的。我是说,我同意你刚才说的那种现象 [羊:嗯。],而且如果看CIA分析情报的话,也能看到相同的事(即路径依赖)。[羊:嗯。] 但我更想说,[羊:嗯。] 实际上, 他们想放上更吸引观众的东西—— [羊:嗯。] 越是娱乐性强、戏剧化的东西 [羊:嗯。],他们越喜欢放到媒体上。[电话铃声] 我先关一下。 
 
YANG: So I came up with several questions, but I think 20 minutes, they only allow me with—[CELL PHONE RINGS]
羊:我这次带来了几个问题,但我觉得20分钟的时间只能——[电话铃声]
 
MIKE: Let me just take this. 
迈克:我再关一下。
 
YANG: —maybe I'll just start with a very personal one. So maybe it sounds sort of like the storybook version, but people assume that a job with such strategic importance and top-level secrecy will radically shape what a CIA guy thinks, does, and even is. So given your 33-year career in CIA, working your way up through the ranks, from analyst to deputy director and two-time acting director, so how has the CIA job changed you?
羊:那我就从这个涉及个人的问题开始吧。说起来可能有点像故事书里的情节,但人们都觉得,CIA这样具有战略重要性和高度机密性的工作会明显地改变一个人的思考模式、改变他的做事风格甚至完全改变他这个人。那你在CIA工作了33年,一路晋升,由分析师变为副局长,之后担任两届代理局长,那么CIA的这份工作对你有哪些改变?
 

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