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看见:专访美国副国务卿 政治记忆与宽恕
2016-12-27 18:56:57   来源:看见网@羊说 原创   作者:看见网特约记者:向杨   编辑:纪许光
历史容易健忘,于是我们需要记忆。历史容易折腾,于是我们需要宽恕。看见高端访谈——羊说对话美国副国务卿温蒂·谢尔曼(Wendy Sherman);

高端访谈!对话美国副国务卿温蒂·谢尔曼 | 政治记忆与政治宽恕

        本文作者:向杨,看见网 特约记者,知名学者。

本文为原创作品,未经看见网或作者授权,严禁全部或部分转载、刊登。

核心提示:

历史容易健忘,于是我们需要记忆;历史容易折腾,于是我们需要宽恕。而人类的政治进程中充满了战争、残酷、选择性遗忘以及历史性包袱。何为政治记忆?何为政治宽恕?哪些历史需铭记?哪些历史该迈过?这篇羊说文章不做任何判断,仅作对历史的思考和对历史的追问。视频中的对话人物为前美国国务院负责政治事务的副国务卿温蒂·谢尔曼(Wendy Sherman),职位居国务院第四。她曾主持美国就朝鲜核问题谈判以及伊朗核问题谈判。

看见网·羊说(微信公共号
xy8810_alan)本期简访美国副国务卿温蒂·谢尔曼.


 
YANG: Ms. Sherman, last year you made a comment on the comfort women in Carnegie Endowment Institute. And there was certain controversy at the time. So definitely Koreans and Chinese are having a quarrel with [the] Japanese over comfort women from World War II. So what's the right thing to do, or what's the appropriate thing to do for the United States to balance out the American interest in defending its ally, and the overwhelming evidence against this denial of historical facts?


看见网·羊说:谢尔曼女士,去年你在卡内基研究所针对慰安妇一事发表过评论。当时有一些争议。显然,韩国和中国在二战慰安妇问题上与日本存在争辩。那么,怎样做才算正确呢?就是说,美国该采取什么恰当的措施,才能既维护了与自身利益相关的同盟国,又没有在确凿的证据前否认历史事实呢?

 
WENDY: Look, I think that President Park and Prime Minister Abe showed great courage, and I don't believe you can do anything in this world without courage. And they came to an agreement to try to take a step toward resolving the comfort women issue. Very difficult, very politically risky for both of them. But that's what it takes. It takes the willingness for leaders to take political risk because they see that it is critical for Japan and South Korea to be as one if they're going to deal with North Korea, if they're going to deal with the security threats in the region. They both have much stronger relationships with China than they have in the past, but nonetheless, they share some anxieties about that as well. So I think the best the United States can do is just support the leaders themselves in the choices they make for their own people to try to go forward. When I was at Harvard, after I left government for the fall semester last year, I worked with a group of graduate students on a project on political forgiveness to understand when countries do that, and when they don't. We started that project believing that, why couldn't Japan be more like Germany? But in fact, Germany's the outlier. Most countries are like Japan. What Germany did after World War II was quite extraordinary. Some of it was out of self-interest, concerned about a rising Soviet Union, so Germany and France reconciled over steel. But some of it was actions by Adenauer to do reparations, to try to move forward, to find common cause. To make remembrance part and parcel of German identity. And indeed, there was no apology from Germany until many, many, many years later. And when Willy Brandt in, I think, 1976 kneeled at Auschwitz, he did not apologize—he was just kneeling for people to understand that he understood what Germany had done. And then it was some years later when the then prime minister was in Israel, at the Knesset, that there was a formal apology. So in my own view, what is most important is for countries to see if they can find a way forward, whether their interest today can help them on that path, and I really salute the president and the prime minister for trying to do so. And it now remains with the people of those two countries and the leadership of those two countries to find the best way forward. But for me—this is just for me—remembrance is absolutely crucial, for all things in life. So you don't repeat history.

温蒂:我觉得朴槿惠总统和安倍首相都展示出了莫大的勇气,而且我认为一个人如果没有勇气的话,什么也事也做不成。他们二人愿意共同努力,进一步解决慰安妇问题。(注:2015年11月2日上午,韩国总统朴槿惠与日本首相安倍晋三在青瓦台展开会谈。慰安妇问题是本次会晤的焦点。朴槿惠表示,两国需克服历史问题,才能深化合作。安倍则回应,将为解决慰安妇争议“加速协商交涉”。12月份,日本承诺赔偿10亿日元,次年生效)这对他们来说很难,政治风险也很大。但要解决问题就要有所付出。两位领导人之所以愿意承担政治风险,是因为他们知道,要应对朝鲜,应对朝鲜半岛地区所面临的安全威胁,日本和韩国就必须合作。和过去相比,他们都加强了与中国的联系。但是,他们又都对中国有所忌惮。所以我认为,美国最好的做法就是,支持两国领导人,支持他们选择为了本国人民而向前迈进。我在哈佛的时候,我去年秋季辞去了政府工作到哈佛任教,我和一组研究生一起在做关于“政治宽恕”的项目,想要理解各个国家什么时候会做这一件事(政治宽恕),什么时候又不会做这件事。一开始做项目时,我们就想为什么日本就不能多学学德国呢?但事实上,德国真的是另类。大多数国家都和日本一样。

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  德国在二战后所做的事相当了不起。有的做法出于自我利益,考虑到当时渐渐崛起的苏联,所以德国和法国就钢铁生产达成了和解。但有些做法是阿登纳(注:德意志联邦共和国第一任总理)为赔偿所为,为了翻过这一页,为了找寻共同的利益,为了把纪念这一切变成德国身份认同的一部分。实际上,直到很多很多年以后,德国才道歉。还有我记得1976年,维利·勃兰特(注:德国政治家,1969年—1974年任西德总理,通过与苏联集团和解的新东方政策打开外交僵局,曾以1970年华沙之跪引起全球瞩目。)在奥斯维辛集中营下跪,但他并没有道歉——他下跪,只是为了让人们知道他理解德国人都做了什么。之后又过了几年,时任总理才在以色列国会上发表了正式道歉。所以在我个人看来,重要的是,各个国家要看看自己能不能找到前进的道路,看看它们目前的利益能不能在这条路上有助于自身。朴槿惠总统和安倍首相就是这样做的,我真心佩服他们。现在,轮到这两国的人民和领导层来找到前进的最佳道路了。不过我认为——仅仅是我个人观点——缅怀历史对任何人来说都至关重要。因为这样的话历史就不会重演。
 

 

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